Amid the fury of posts over the last few weeks voicing angst over now former Notre Dame defensive coordinator, one of the common tunes heard on Notre Dame message boards is that the Irish just don’t have defensive talent. Sorry to disappoint, but that is simply not the case. The Irish may not have Alabama’s level of talent on defensive right now but they have more than enough talent to be fielding above average defenses at minimum.
Let’s take a look at who started against Duke.
- DE – Isaac Rochell – 4-star from talent rich Georgia. Held offers from Alabama, Georgia, Clemson, Michigan, and Florida State
- NT – Jarron Jones – 4-star with offers from Penn State, Florida State, and Ohio State
- DT – Jerry Tillery – 4-star (as OL) with offers from LSU, Stanford, Texas, and Texas A&M
- DE – Andrew Trumbetti – 4-star with offers from Florida, Miami, Michigan State (Under Armour All-American)
- WILL – Tevon Coney – 4-star with offers from Alabama, Auburn, Florida, Clemson, Georgia, Ohio State
- MIKE – Nyles Morgan – 4-star with offers from Alabama, Michigan, Florida, Ole Miss, Oklahoma, Ohio State, Michigan State, USC
- SAM – James Onwualu – 4 star (as WR) with offers from Wisconsin, Michigan, Stanford
- CB – Cole Luke – 4 star with offers from Oklahoma, Michigan, Michigan State, USC
- CB – Nick Coleman – 3-star with offers from Duke, Michigan State, Pitt
- SS – Drue Tranquill – 4 star with offers from Penn State, Wisconsin, Purdue
- FS – Devin Studstill – Miami, Texas, Michigan State, Penn State
And how about some key reserves? Daelin Hayes (4-star), Daniel Cage (4-star), Jay Hayes (4-star sitting on the shelf), Asmar Bilal (4-star sitting on the shelf), Greer Martini (3-star), Donte Vaughn (4-star), Khalid Kareem (4-star). Speaking of Kareem, maybe he’s one of the players that we’ll see more of this weekend that Kelly spoke of. Ever since the freshman’s roughing the passer penalty against Nevada he’s been banished to the sidelines.
There is a talent drop off in the secondary thanks in part to injuries and suspensions. Notre Dame is playing without Shaun Crawford (4-star) and Nick Watkins (4-star) due to injury and Mex Redfield (5-star) and Devin Butler (4-star) due to suspensions. Watkins still has an outside chance of playing this year. Kelly said on Thursday that Watkins will have another X-Ray on Friday that will determine if he is able to play this year or will take a medical redshirt.
But what about that front seven? The only player starting in Notre Dame’s front seven who an argument could be made wasn’t an elite recruit at the time is Onwualu who came to Notre Dame as a wide receiver and could still be playing out of position as a SAM. Other than Onwualu though? The Irish defensive front is actually loaded with talent enough that they should be able to generate at least an average pass rush though they do lack a true WDE other than freshman Daelin Hayes.
Notre Dame fans lament when the Irish “just can’t compete with Alabama” but three starters along the front seven all held offers from Alabama. Michigan State took down the Irish last week while the majority of the Irish defense all held offers from the Spartans when they were recruited.
Even one of the weak links (talent wise) in the starting lineup – Nick Coleman – held an offer from Duke. The Blue Devils sure had enough talent on Saturday to knock off the Irish.
Aside from the starters and key reserves, Notre Dame has some other talented defenders currently toiling on the roster such as linebacker Josh Barajas (4-star) and DT Elijah Taylor (4-star). Last year’s recruiting cycle included 4-star prospects like CB Tony Pride Jr and WDE Julian Okwara. They may need more seasoning before they are ready to contribute, but again, the talent is there.
Recruiting rankings are obviously not the end all be all, but the point here is Notre Dame has talent on defense. If anything an argument could be made that misses in some recruiting cycles have forced the staff to over-recruit in some spots for some uneven depth, but no one will convince me that the talent on Notre Dame’s defense is bad to the point that they can’t keep even average teams under 35 points.
What should be at least a little encouraging is that whoever ends up taking over for Brian Vangorder will not inherit a bare cupboard. He won’t have to make chicken salad with chicken crap like some people who lead you to believe. There is talent to work with on the Notre Dame roster and there is a major influx of talent coming in next year assuming the Irish hold together the current class amid the defensive turmoil and mounting losses.
Here’s a quick reminder of the talent coming in next year for Notre Dame
- Darnell Ewell (DT) – 4-star offers from Alabama, Auburn, Clemson, Florida State, LSU, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Stanford
- Donovan Jeter (DE) – 4-star offers from Alabama, Florida, Georgia, Penn State, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State
- David Adams (ILB) – 4-star offers from Florida, Michigan, Michigan State, LSU, Ole Miss, Stanford
- Pete Werner (OLB) – 4-star Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Ole Miss, Texas A&M
- Paulson Adebo (CB) – 4-star offers from Arkansas, Georgia, LSU, Oklahoma, Ole Miss, Texas
- Isaiah Robertson (S) – 4-star offers from Penn State, Wisconsin
- Kurt Hinish (DT) – 3-star offers from Tennessee, Pitt, Penn State, Ole Miss, South Carolina
- Jonathon MacCollister (SDE) – 3-star offers from Auburn, Clemson, Michigan State, Ohio State, Oregon, Tennessee
- Drew White (ILB) – 3-star offers from Arkansas, LSU, Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin
Keeping all of those talented recruits on board and adding in a pass rusher, another linebacker, and another member of the secondary would only add to the talent already on the roster for the next defensive coordinator to work with whether that be Greg Hudson or an outside hire.
Also, keep in mind that Notre Dame’s defense is still very young too. Only Isaac Rochell, Jarron Jones, James Onwualu, and Cole Luke are out of eligibility at season’s end.
Notre Dame might not have Alabama level talent on defense – no one does – but they certainly have enough defense to be playing much, much better defense than what we are seeing currently. Blaming the defensive failures on talent is just excuse making.
PJ Morgan,
Yes, they improved a lot during that game. I think I noticed a few of them actually having fun in the second half, especially the front seven. That can only help.
Bruce GC
Maybe it is wishful thinking but it seemed to me that the D seemed to improve most of the second half. We still have tackling problems but I think we’ll see improvements each week. I saw less hesitation in the second half.
Yeah! Lou said two things about speed:
1. He said “speed kills!”
2. But he also said “speed won’t help anything if your player is running the wrong way”
Amen to that.
Bruce GC
Talent means nothing without intelligence. Give me the guy who runs a 4.7 but knows where to be over the 4.4 who is confused all the time. Most kids these days are not very smart yet still get to play its baffling.
If BVG took over the defense at Alabama, I wonder if Alabama would lose to Dook.
Poppin in practice gets guys to play inspired football on Saturdays and brings out a little competition also..always has and always will..plus the whole play more guys on defense thing Kelly talks about, he never has played many guys defensively, the rotation sucked last year..nobody ever gets experience for the following year and its always a work in progress defensively because of it..
He might get this D turned around but, this rotation and getting guys more playing time should been going on for 7 years now..just my thoughts..Good write Frank.
And one more thing, easiest ND site to blog on that’s for SURE..! Plan and simple..maybe ND Defense should come here for help..?
And one more thing – those men I listed above did something else too – they inspired the 3 stars around them to play like 4 stars, and the 4 stars to play like 5 star guys, especially in big games.
TEO was the last guy I can think of who seemed to be able to do that.
I see none of that sort of thing to vastly understate the point. My greatest hope right now is that Hudson can fill that role of “upping” everyone’s game for the rest of the season from a coaching position. But it’s probably best done on the field.
By all that is Holy, these guys should band together and perform like a buzz saw tomorrow…but I thought that was coming against Duke! Shows what I know, I guess. As my dear old dad once noted…no ARA coached team ever lost two regular season games in a row… in 11 years! You want to get back to the glory days? Start with that as a goal.
Go Irish.
Bruce G. Curme
Frank,
You are right about the 4 star recruiting – its been well done- that’s why I still like Coach Kelly.
USAF Irish, and another post, said it first – Hudson can get this team to be an average defense with some work and inspiration, etc. and we could finish strong. I agree, and I really hope it happens.
But there is something else missing…my dad used to call it “chemistry” – now if BVG was the problem there, that problem could go away fast. But “chemistry” is like targeting – I can’t define it, but I know it when I see it (or don’t see it). I don’t know why these guys under-perform – I haven’t been to a practice in many years. But they do.
As for recruiting, overall it has been good, some of it has been great. Obviously, Kizer was a great find: out of Ohio I think. And there are 4 star guys all over the field. But some guys seem like they were better as frosh and sophs than juniors and seniors. That usually is coaching when it appears in more than one kid.
And I believe, without ever being a coach or even a player, that we miss that 5 star guy (that max never was anyway – he’s not what I’m talking about. Where are Browner and Fry, for example? These are game changing guys- BK just has not gotten his signature guy yet. The closest I see on this team is J J. At times, he has the look. The blocked extra point? Was that him? I know the interception was. But Alan Page was causing problems ON EVERY SINGLE PLAY! So was Lynch. SO DID BROWNER and BRADLEY! SO DID ZORICH, WILLIAMS and ALM (God rest his soul). Don’t try to tell me we’ve got that here. We do not. Sorry.
Let’s go get one or two (I mean, if we really intend to be better than average on defense someday).
And while we are at it, get a 6’3 DB, just in case we ever stop the run in the red zone, because eventually we are going to need one.
Finally, this is like the old “where’s the beef?” – and I don’t mean linemen…we are cool there, no doubt.
WHERE IS OUR FULLBACK – that we have ALWAYS had at Notre Dame? Where is that guy?
You know, I want to be clear Frank, you are essentially correct. Recruiting has been good to excellent. We’ve got a guy with Joe Montana’s talent, in my opinion, for god’s sake!
But also in my opinion, if you guys really want a return to glory, as you seem to say, then you are missing a couple of key pieces that have ALWAYS BEEN THERE IN OUR GLORY DAYS.
Go get em!
Bruce G. Curme 77′ 82
How could these guys get to this point in their career and not know how to tackle. The coaches are clearly not doing a very good job but is there more to this than what we can see?
I don’t know how anyone could look at the defensive play and not see all kinds of coaching scheme issues. There is no way that an ND defense with that talent could ever give up more than 30 points a game. As people have already said even with an average coaching effort ND is 4-0. It often looked like BVG just made play calls without any clear game plan. He looked like a good coach in first year but when Schmidt got hurt we found out quickly about how much coaching was happening on the field and not on the sideline. Schmidt wasn’t physically hard to replace, but his ability to coach the team on the field was missed almost instantly. I often would wonder out loud if coach had the ability to analyze film, and wished we could see his film review sessions. Sometimes coaches fall into bad place of thinking my system works no matter what players I have available.
The talent is there. They just run around like a bunch of chickens with their heads cut off! They are greatly missing a Joe Schmidt type Player. He was a Coach on the field. This defense reacts instead of pursue.
It’s like this!!! I get sick and tired of the “Notre dame doesn’t have the level of everybody else” argument. Because they do!!! It’s player development!! And not running predictable stuff!!! The talent level was the same when Diaco was there he just taught kids how to tackle and tackle properly!! None of this jumping at people and hope to get a arm tackle or get run over! And he ran schemes that made sense! I don’t know about you guys but when BVG was coordinating I knew what the other teams were gonna run offensively at times because you could see the gaping holes to either run through or the blown coverage where to throw the ball!! I don’t care if your a all world player in high school,when your not being taught to make proper tackles at the collegiate level and you’re being put out of position your not likely to succeed!!! I’m sure honestly some of the defensive coaches were thinking to themselves “why are we running these busted schemes”!!! I mean Texas has the ball at the three, puts in essentially a running back at quarterback and do we stack the line?? No we out think ourselves and act like this guy is gonna throw it!! Lol come on man my mighty mites knew what was coming and would’ve definitely tackled better. Then that’s not to mention all the blitzes that were slow to get to the quarterbacks!! All they gotta do is read the hot route!!! It’s like playing PS4 when somebody already knows the D your running and eats you alive! That’s why we get the blown out of proportion PS4 scores we’ve gotten! If Hudson is smart, and he is he’ll run a D where kids are put in position to stop somebody and make stops instead of the D we did have where guys were running like chickens with their heads cut off all over the field and totally whiffing on tackles! Just remember Hudson did coach at FSU with stoops and is probably licking his chops with the talent they do have! My guess is you’ll see a difference!
I agree. We can argue over how good the defensive players really are. But one things is certain, they should be better than 100th in the country. I blame the coaches primarily because the players aren’t even executing the basics. That’s inexcusable.
Frank Vitovich – well done !!!
We can argue about how good the talent is. However, what cannot be argued is that the defense is and has been a very talented group. Top 10? Possibly. Top 20? Probably. And yet ND’s defense has never approached that performance over the course of any of the 2+ yrs of BVG.
Thanks for doing all that research. I do appreciate this article.
I specifically used one recruiting service w/o cherry picking the highest ranking for each player. For instance, Morgan was 5-stars on Scout. Studstill was 4-stars on Rivals.
One of a handful of ranking services… that’s fine. I figured you were using the most optimistic info for the article. I would too. But the bottom line is we have players starting on D that would never even sniff a starting lineup at the top tier programs. And I would LOVE to just blame it all on the DC, but I simply cannot bring myself to do that. I know better. We have seen this all play out many, many times before.
Thank you for your honest appraisal Frank. I agree with your conclusions. Regardless of the talent level argument, or how one may quantify it, the defense HAS underperformed with BVG in particular, and during Bk years in general.
Check 247Sports for their rankings – I did before I wrote the post. As for Trumbetti, not only was a 4-star, he was an Under Armour All-American to boot. Funny you should mention Tuck though. While Tuck turned out to be a great player, he was considered a “tweener” out of high school and was a 3-star LB with few impressive offers. His recruiting profile compares favorably actually to guys like Julian Okwara and Jamir Jones. Whether or not they develop like Tuck remains to be seen.
While I agree that we have some “good” defensive players, it seems like we don’t get the true elite players in areas most needed. I always mention defensive end when I talk about Notre Dame defense to people and how we haven’t had an elite one since, I would say, Justin Tuck. I think everyone knows that if you can get pressure on a QB with just your front four that the defense is going to generally be in pretty good shape. When is the last time we have been able to do that? Tuitt was OK as well as Sheldon Day being a “hustler” out there but these guys I wouldn’t consider elite pass rushers. This is one area that ND really needs to focus on with the recruiting.
The other area I would say that has been pretty awful from an elite talent perspective is at corner. The last true shut down corner that I can remember is Shane Walton which goes all the way back to the Willingham years. And he was a freakin soccer player. Russell was seriously awful last year and Luke continues to get burned over and over. And sorry but you can’t blame scheme on this one guys. They have played a lot of one on one and just get smoked. And this whether they back off and play soft or if they are bumping off the line. These are two key areas that Kelly really needs to focus on recruiting in the near future.
Re “Blaming the defensive failures on talent is just excuse making.” So I guess the blame falls fully on the coaches. But isn’t that excuse making too? Let’s not even use the word “excuse.” What is the REASON the defense is nonexistent? Talent has to factor in there somewhere. And I’m not sure sure about Trumbetti being a 4 star, and I really don’t recall Tranquill having 4 stars. Furthermore, I think it takes a lot of nerve to sit there and talk about how talented Nick Coleman is, and offers from Duke, MSU and Pitt isn’t exactly selling me on his point either, but to each his own. Either way, the talent is there to at least beat Duke; I totally agree with that.
Interesting to say the least! All of that 4-Star talent and we are stuck with a defense that has bigger holes in it then the Titanic! So either the coaching stinks or the players stink, or the people who give out stars are clueless or all three. Having watched the disasters each week, it would be my humble opinion that it’s probably the players with a little bit of help from the coaching staff. So what does the new defensive coordinator need to do? Its simple…………stop someone! Go back to basics and hope the personnel is capable of getting more three and outs then third and short.This week could and should be a good test, for both the players and Hudson. If he can rally the troops and get them to play better, then he may have saved the season. I seriously doubt that you will see that big a difference but as a loyal Irish fan for 60 years I gotta believe they will come out with renewed excitement and enthusiasm and stop the Orange. Hey we are going to score points, Kizer has done an admirable job of that, regardless of what Kelly says. Only time will tell! Go Irish!!!!
Great article. I’ve been arguing this on message boards for weeks. I like the what if game to give ND fans a glimpse of what could or could not be. What if Jerry had gone to LSU, defensive line university? We’d be saying “we can’t recruit SEC level defensive line talent”.. What if Tevon had signed with Florida like he almost did? He’d be on one of the best defenses in the county right now and we’d be sitting here crying about how me missed another one. What if Daelin and Kareem, both Michigan kids, had signed to play for Harbaugh, an early playoff contender? Point is all these kids had great options out of high school and they chose ND. One of the main reasons I’m not in the fire BK camp, yet, is because he has recruited very well on both sides of ball. Now let’s find a coordinator to manage and win with this talent. JDRIVESTHEND, team 127 had playoff/national championship talent and BK and BVG simply blew it. They blew it. Joe Schmidt played more snaps than Jaylon last year. MORE THAN JAYLON. Are you freaking kidding me? Joe kept Nyles cemented on the bench. ARE YOU KIDDING ME!!! Nyles in the lineup on team 127 and it’s a playoff team with ease. I can only pray they see the light and put the best 11 on the field starting tomorrow.
Thank you! An average defense and ND would be a top 10 team.
It’s so clear . Notre dame’s past history can still
attract talent. But are they attracting the right kind of guys that put team ahead of the Nfll or themselves? Many of these kids don’t seem to have the same understanding of past players that grew up
in the faith and came from catholic high schools that taught you something other than football. Too
many recent recruits have been involved in cheating, drugs, a gun possession and sexual misconduct.
I just think they are recruiting in the wrong way.
And the coaches have been a disaster. The only really good year kelly had was with Weiss recruits. And accepting Bvg as a coaching talent is beyond belief.
Kelly can coach and has experience. He just was never good enough, insightful enough, or inspirational. I never saw the spirit of holtz , parseghian or Lombardi in his soul or in the performance of his players. With some great exceptions Teo, Fuller. Etc
I think Frank is making my point, talent is there, coaching is sub par. BK hired BVG after 2013. He wanted a more complex defensive system due to the beating the Irish took from Alabama and Saban’s comment of the Irish defense was predictable. In college football today the defense doesn’t need to be complicated, it needs to get stops and field goals. If ND stops Duke with 7 minutes to go and holds them to field goals they win. If they stop MSU from getting a quick turn around 8 after a turnover, they win. I think BK needs to find a way to keep his defense off the field and simplify it so people aren’t thinking as much. Against high uptempo offenses he needs to rotate personnel per series to keep them fresh
I think the argument is they should be better than one of the worse defenses in the country. They have enough talent to at least be average.
Look no further than my home state team, Wisconsin. They do a lot with way less talent. It’s coaching plain and simple.
The only reason VanGorder didn’t have 3 miserable seasons at ND instead of just 2 is that last year’s team was loaded. When you think about what we lost: Smith, Day, Okwara, Russell and Shumate, VanGorder horribly underachieved last year as well. We just had enough star power to overcome his leadership to an extent.
With the combination of sending all that talent to the NFL and keeping VanGorder on board this season was destined for a drop off – even if Redfield were still on the team and Watkins and Crawford healthy.
There you go again, Frank- confusing us with facts.
Before the Duke game, Notre Dame’s defense ranked 104th in fourth down defense, 103rd in pass efficiency defense, 102nd in total defense, 100th in tackles for loss, 99th in rushing defense, 94th in scoring defense, 93rd in red zone defense, 89th in third down defense and 89th in turnovers gained, with zero sacks, allowing an average of 32 points per game, conceding more than 500 total yards and 200 rushing yards to both Michigan State and Texas. Add in the Duke game D’ stats, and it wouldn’t improve much, despite the first sack and the two fourth down stops against the team that scored more against ND than versus Wake Forest and Northwestern combined.
It’d be interesting to see how many years our recruiting ranking each February translated into where the class ended up four years later in the final rankings. The case can be made that recruiting rankings aren’t totally accurate, and key injuries impact seasons, and players leaving aren’t always replaced by players of equal talent, as seen most clearly this year with the departures of Day, Smith, Fuller, Stanley, and maybe even Martin and Shumate. But as your article clearly shows, incoming recruits’ rankings have to be considered an indication of the talent level when they arrived. Developing that talent, and utilizing them at their best position, is on the coaches.
Agree.